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To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why

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Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.26 11:31:00 - [1] Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 26/12/2010 11:35:31 I think a lot of people miss the purpose of T2 BPO's. Before their introduction, T1 production was borderline pointless. When you allow every player to easily acquire every BPO in the game, every BPO becomes insignificant. T2 BPO's were created to be exclusive. Fault the lottery all you want (as it's surely not a perfect distribution method), but the lottery was used because they specifically did not want everyone to have the opportunity to buy any T2 BPO they want. The fact that they used the lottery to begin with makes their intentions for T2 BPO's very clear. Frankly, whining about T2 BPO's is akin to whining about Bill Gates owning so much MS stock, while you can't just buy it from an unlimited supply at Walmart. Some commodities are intentionally designed to be exclusive and limited in quantity - both in this game and in real life. The real complaint against T2 BPO's has always been a thinly veiled whine about asset inequality. This game has been out for a long time now. There are people that have more wealth than you can currently dream of, and this is what really bothers you, as you work hard for your isk. It is simply not in the nature of EVE to reset the playing field. If you want a game that doesn't allow older players to wield such large advantages (be them SP, isk, assets, etc.), I recommend you go play a game like WoW where they have a clear record of essentially resetting the game, and thusly leveling the playing field, every expansion. You're asking this game to be something that it is not... something that it has never been, and hopefully, never will.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.26 11:45:00 - [2] Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 26/12/2010 11:45:38 Originally by: Nobzy Is there anyone who has ever beaten Akita T in an industrial argument? Forgot to compliment you on your very well written OP Akita. There are times in life where one should consider WHO they are arguing against. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I would argue with Jesus over his own existence - I'd just tell him sorry.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.26 20:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Tasko Pal I frankly like them in game as is. They make T2 production quirkier and increase the investment options for the rich. I could not agree more. I honestly feel that the removal of T2 BPO's would leave the game less interesting and diverse than it is with them.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.26 23:48:00 - [4] Compared to a new player... 100m+ SP is "god mode" 100bill+ assets is "god mode" having already played for 6+ years in a game that doesn't reset is "god mode" What you are complaining about, at it's core, is the accumulation of assets. If you want a game that resets assets every couple years go play WoW.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.27 00:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud The fact that they used the lottery to begin with makes their intentions for T2 BPO's very clear. The fact that they stopped the lottery makes their intentions even more clear. As seems to be your habit, you were in such a hurry to spam a reply to each and every sentence I wrote that you missed my point entirely. I'll elaborate, just for you There are any number of ways they could have distributed T2 BPO's. They could have just seeded them to the market (like T1 BPO's) making them available to everyone. The fact that they did not do this means that they were INTENDED to be exclusive, and limited in supply. Originally the plan was to just slowly add more prints through the lottery if it was deemed greater supply was needed. This was abandoned not because the idea of T2 BPO's itself was deemed unfair, but because CCP needed to have a more dynamic method of price control (hence invention).
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.27 00:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud X is "god mode" Nonsense. These are all examples of things that a new player can pretty well immediately start to compete in. Eve is a game all about diminishing returns - training 10x as long yields you 2% advantages. T2 BPOs provide improving advantages. First, it's incredibly bad forum etiquette to attribute your paraphrasing as a quote. If you want to paraphrase then don't quote. Second, a new player cannot start to immediately compete in those areas, and I think you know this. I can fly practically any ship I want, fit how I want, without its loss being a big deal (this is due to asset wealth, not T2 BPO's). I fail to see how a request to level the playing field in the case of T2 BPO's is much different from a request to level the playing field in any other case. I'm starting to think that even WoW might not be "fair" enough for you. Perhaps you should just stick to single player games.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.27 00:59:00 - [7] Originally by: hermot Originally by: "Liang Nuren" The fact that they stopped giving out T2 BPOs and that there are no T2 BPOs for new items very clearly illustrates that CCP understands that the limited distribution was a mistake Correct other than the "in the first place", as they only understood this after a certain amount of time had expired exposing the flaws in their initial plan. Good Post Hermot, but I would like to make a small correction here. The problem with T2 BPO's was that they had no competition, invention solved this. If they had deemed the exclusivity of the prints to be the problem they would have most likely just seeded T2 BPO's to the market, rather than implementing an entirely new system to balance them.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Stella SGP PS. Hey Liang I tried my best to sound like you in this argument, have I done well enough to start a thread on it? I had to do a double take... you had me fooled Are you sure you're not Liang's Titan hating alt? Originally by: Liang Nuren Also: individual players can absolutely afford Titans. :) Also: individual players can absolutely afford T2 BPO's
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:29:00 - [9] Quote: ... a really bad attempt ... You still forgot to quote like this Stella Paraphrasing disguised as a quote also works
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Akita T No, it's not God Mode, it's "easy mode at a high cost", we've covered this several times over. Poor Akita. Cost is the money used up (meaning you don't have it anymore) to produce something. I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b?

Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren What is the opportunity cost in keeping a 30B ISK item that makes 12B/year and will sell for even more next year? TBH the only reason to sell it is because you think its about to get nerfed or you CBA to install the manufacturing job anymore. Its pretty hard to leverage ALL your ISK ALL the time. -Liang Is it your contention that the cost of the prints doesn't matter at all in determining whether or not they are "fair"? Perhaps YOU would like to buy my EMP print for 200b then? To answer your question, I'd say the opportunity cost there would be somewhere around 30b + some number related to the cost of building materials needed on hand. Not surprised you couldn't derive that though
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:28:00 - [12] Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk. The problem isn't in finding a single use for 30B ISK - the problem is in finding continual uses for 30B ISK. You have to leverage that 30B ISK all the time in something that nets better than the T2 BPO. -Liang Here's where your lack of math usage is biting you in the ass. You only need to make 4% of your capital back as profit PER MONTH to match a print that costs 2 years profit (the low end of print costs).
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Shai 'Hulud I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b? When you buy a T2 BPO, it is an investment. Unless you are really bad at this game there is no cost when investing into a T2 BPO. Opportunity cost is a hypothetical standpoint and only vaguely relevant to the game balance issue at hand. Where did you make the jump to 200b ISK EMP s BPOs? I'm not sure how you think there is "no cost" investing in a T2 BPO. If you are referring to the fact that that capital investment is simply held in the continuing value of the print, such could be said of ANY investment. I jumped to the 200b EMP S print because if you think that the "cost" of something is irrelevant, that only its profitability matters, then you should have no problem buying any BPO from me for any price I wish.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Sig Sour No, you misunderstand. If you buy something for 1b, and sell it for 1b, there is no "cost" to using it. If you buy it for 1b and sell it for 900m, then there is 100m cost involved. If you buy something for 1b and sell it for 1.1b, there is a -100m cost involved (called profit). There is no cost in a T2 BPO investment, unless you are stupid. What if the item you invested in drops drastically in usage (and price)? I will openly admit to losing 10b isk on a T2 print I bought a few years ago... it happens. Also, I understand very well what you say there... but such could be said of nearly any investment in the game. If I decide I want to trade in jump freighters, any jump freighter I buy the "cost" is simply transferred to asset wealth. Unless maybe you are dumb enough to invest in player banks etc.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:22:00 - [16] Also, I'm aware that my 200b "X" print is stretching it, but you were making the argument that the cost didn't matter AT ALL... which is simply false.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:32:00 - [17] You have to take the losses with the gains m8... didn't say I'm hurting for isk I don't think of myself, or anyone else, as stupid just because we can't predict the future 100% accurately. Truth is that there is risk involved in T2 BPO investment, much more so than many other investment vehicles.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:44:00 - [18] Or, that the item they make will become less used. It happens nearly every major patch that a type of print is either buffed or nerfed, indirectly.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:21:00 - [19] For example, look at the change in profitability for a print like the Hornet II BPO over the last year. The rise in the cost of robotics, due to planetary interaction, has hit a print like this proportionally very hard, changing profit per drone from 50-60k each to 35-40k each. This translates into about a 30% loss in profitability. Further, this translates into a lower value for the print itself (at least proportionally). Successful investment in T2 BPO's requires more than just owning any print.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.03 19:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 03/01/2011 19:11:45 Originally by: Karn Velora Here's a reason to remove the T2 BPOs: After all these years, the topic is still ****ing people off to the degree that the current thread is up to 27 pages. Does anyone need more reasons? This could also be seen as an answer to the whines. If CCP agreed, and thought that they were unfair and needed to be removed, it would have happened by now. If you think that the frequency of a given complaint implies its correctness... perhaps we should reset everyone's SP, make high-sec. ganking impossible, reset everyone's assets, remove high end moons... hell lets just remove all means of making isk other than missions. Then it would be "fair", and no one would have anything to complain about.

Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.04 08:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 04/01/2011 08:10:56 Originally by: Kaya Divine Originally by: Stella SGP If you think its unfair for new players then maybe a persistent universe game like EVE isn't for you... All games which ever existed had and have persistent worlds...while they last. Because Sun is shining is a fact, its not valid argument to not change laws or game mechanic in this case. It seems Stella's perfectly made point was lost on you, so I will elaborate. Whether you realize it or not, what you are complaining about is nothing more than asset inequality. T2 BPO owners do not have access to any game mechanics that you do not have access to, they just have more "stuff" than you do. If you want a game that resets player wealth from time to time, a persistent universe game like EVE simply is not for you.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.04 16:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Karn Velora You have to admit it's funny though, that the main defense argument for keeping the T2 BPOs comes down to "it doesn't matter, there's's no advantage, there's no extra profit". If in fact the BPOs have no real advantage, then just show some humanity and understanding and agree to have them removed - not because it will right a wrong, but because it'll calm so many people down - and it doesn't matter anyway. Not sure what made you think that is our main defense of them, maybe you should read back a bit more. Our main claim has been that the advantages they provide are balanced by their opportunity cost. If you think T2 BPO's are win, buy one? Originally by: Karn Velora That's rather the point, isn't it? resetting SP, banning gankings, resetting assets, all all those other silly ideas you offered to make a point... those would have an impact, and major impact at that. But, where the BPOs are concerned, you always hear "it's no advantage, invention can compete in profits". Sounds to me like the majority of the BPO owners are sticking to an argument that in itself is reason to have them removed. Again, reading comprehension for the lose... I never said they were "fair", I said that lots of stuff isn't "fair", go play counter strike or something like that if this bothers you. Originally by: Karn Velora If you think that the frequency of a given complaint implies its correctness... I would just like to turn this one around on you and say: If you think that the frequency of defense speeches for a given issue implies its correctness... You are no more "right" for defending the system as is, than anyone else is "right" for attacking the system as is. It's just an opinion. Nothing more. The only thing you have going for you with this argument is that you are defending CCPs actions, which may not turn out to be "right" even though you are playing the favorite side. With this argument, we can argue that every request for any change, update, or new feature should be stopped, and that the game should never evolve, because it's perfect the way it is. However, this isn't true, is it? Things change all the time, don't they? Things CCP made and designed, are changed. I turned your argument around on you, and now you have turned it back around on me. If the best you can do is claim that we should take an action based not on that side's correctness, but its persistence, then you really have nothing to contribute to this discussion. Originally by: Karn Velora Personally, I don't dabble in manufacture, so all this is little more than an intellectual excercise for me. quoted for emphasis
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.04 17:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Kaya Divien See it this way, only because lottery isn't available to new players,t2 bpos should be removed. Because they cant experience that side of EvE - lottery. As has been stated many, many times now... there is NO way to fix any problems with the lottery now. It happened. It's over. Get over it. Any action taken now would almost entirely effect players that did not receive their prints from the lottery. They purchased their prints, just as you have the option to do now. This is why I say you are complaining about nothing more than asset inequality.
Shai 'Hulud Internecine Unlimited	Posted - 2011.02.19 01:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/02/2011 10:30:08 Originally by: Stella SGP So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them? because those, who own them already, destroy the invention market on those items. Buying those doesnt make any sense due to insanely long ROI, but you're still f*cked by people who got them from a banned game process. So they're overpowered because they offer poor ROI??? I'm confused
Shai 'Hulud Internecine Unlimited	Posted - 2011.02.19 23:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/02/2011 11:31:46 they are overpowered because they ruin the invention market but offer a terrible ROI so only complete idiots, collectors or peeps/corps with already too much ISK would ever consider buying a decently profitable print. People who got them from the lottery win, all other loose. Scam, steal, cheat one is all right but buying doesnt make any sense for all prints I've calculated. I've come to the conclusion that you have no clue what you are talking about... or that you are completely ****ed. I'm confident that no one else has made the argument that you are making: that they should be removed because they are a bad investment. Let me help you with some financial advice - if you think something is a bad investment, don't **ing invest in it. Class is excused for the day.

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